Talkin' About Justice
As a follow-up to Bart Campolo's talk at collegelife talk on October 28, we'd like to know more of your thoughts about the issue of justice and what he talked about.
posted by UMin at 5:24 PM
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
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22 Comments:
I think that Bart Campolo's sermon on justice is exactly what North Park students needed to hear. I was a bit upset with the people who checked out early and shut down simply because his views did not match up with theirs. I think that this shows laziness. When Campolo attempted to answer the question, "Why do bad things happen?" I think that he raised a good point in saying that God simply does the best he can but sometimes he cannot fight everything, and in turn he needs us to use our HANDS to further his will. I think that many students at North Park are all talk. They talk about injustice but they never do anything about it, even though this campus offers many opportunities to learn and react to the injustices of this world.
I agree with the idea of not checking out while Bart was talking. In order to get the right impression from his message, you really had to hang with him throughout all of it. I was definitely challenged by much that he said. The critiques that he made against us (or Christians in general) stung, because they were pretty true! I may not have agreed with everything that he said, but his perspective gave a fresh look at a topic that gets pushed to the side too often in the church. The message got me thinking about what I as a Christian can/should do in order to bring the Kingdom of God, and I think that's well worth my time. It's good to be uncomfortable - being uncomfortable usually spurs action much more than being comfortable does.
Were the prophets always loved and adored for the critiques they made against their people and culture?
I have to say, Bart had quite the impact on me. I agreed with everything he said except for the part where it was mentioned that "God can't" save all those suffering people. This shocked me that someone could even say this. I was so upset that I went to Java afterword. It was only then did I really understand what he was saying. God can't save all those people because he isn't all powerful, he can't because it is our responsibility. When we were talking at Java, he made it so much clearer and easier to understand. While I agreed with everything else he was saying during the talk, I feel like he should have focused more on that huge statement he made and explain it to the fullest extent. I hate to think about what happened to those kids who listened to the sermon and then didnt go to Java to hear more. They went home confused and angry. I loved the talk, don't get me wrong. I just wanted more explaining.
I wasn't at the talk - I'm just responding to impressions posted here. I'm a 3rd year Theology student at the seminary. I think that saying "God can't", even to make a point, is stepping into dangerous territory of biblical incorrectness, and it's really a shame if one or two poor choices of wording overshadows an otherwise necessary and true prophetic sermon.
A friend of mine had this cartoon on his door-
Person: God, why do you allow so much suffering?
God: I was just about to ask YOU that.
Ouch.
I think Dan is onto the important point - OUR responsibility. It isn't that God can't; it's that God doesnt, because for whatever reason (I don't claim to fully understand) God created humans with freedom of choice. We aren't robots or angels. This means that in addition to honest mistakes, we (ignorantly or knowingly) participate in serious systemic evil. It's hard enough to hear that inaction is a problem. We really don't want to be told that our actions actually cause injustice, too.
Escapist, 'free ticket to heaven', theology is unbiblical too. Jesus taught us to pray "your will be done". There's a strong biblical case that he didn't mean "get me out of this place, but in the meantime let my will be done and let me live as comfortably as possible". I don't think we're being honest with ourselves as disciples unless "your will be done on Earth" includes "may I do Your will (both in terms of personal morality and loving service to others), may Your will be done through me".
If we understand Luke 4:18-19 to be Jesus' 'mission statement', his public declaration of what he came to do . . . How do we conclude that Jesus saving ME (from something) is the end goal? Maybe we are also saved to continuing the mission for which the Spirit of the Lord annointed Jesus. Why else are we called the 'body of Christ' and promised the presence of the Spirit?
Praise God for Bart. His sermon left me absolutely undone before the Lord and the rest of this world. He laid the injustice of my life out. He is the first person to not just talk about but actually see the suffering of our human struggle.
He sees my humanity fully. He acknowledges the force of death, decay, and destruction that has ever been after human life. I am thankful for this becaue it is a very vulnerable and raw reality.
He acknowledges and desires to act upon injustice not just give hugs, pray, and say "Well God will use your abuse, rape, alcoholism, and drug addiction... just wait on the Lord."
Praise God that Bart let all the fluff fall to the floor and brought a clarity that I absolutely believe is longed for.
He pulled the metaphorical bandage off and unveiled our wounds. Yes, OUR- corporate wounds, corporate sins, and ultimately the corporate call to bring hope to our dying world.
For years there has been a lot talk about what is unfair and unjust but what has been done? And I'm not refering to what some say is "North Park's pitch on Social Justice". Praise God that North Park continually sees what most are not willing to acknowledge.
So what are we going do with this? If we disagree with something why are we just talking? Get involved on the committee that organizes and/or plans. Suggest your oppinion, encourage communication, have a free exchange of ideas- how is anything going to happen if we don't allow each other the space to think with passion, to ask questions, to challenge?
If we want change, if we even see that there is some greater potential in something I firmly believe we are part of that change. Let us not look unto the future with hope but may we actually BECOME THE HOPE OF THE WORLD. We are to do greater things than Christ, right?
Our generation is called into action. We are the Joshua Generation following the leadership of those in Bart's generation which can be compared to Moses. We're being shown the Jordan. Are we going to look back and go back to the Captive Reality of past slavery or are we going to let go of whatever is in our hands and set foot in the river towards the life of God?
It's time to cross!
I resonate a lot with Kristen's comment about being pretty torn apart after the message. I heard a similar message about 3 years ago (it was my first college life service ever, as a new freshman) spoken by Kazi Joshua. I remember hearing about the state of the world and for the first time really feeling that weight (or the fraction of it that I could bare). I remember standing out on the greenspace alone that night screaming at God, telling Him he was doing an awful job and that I didn't quite know what to do with everything I felt and heard.
I don't think the questions about God and suffering have been answered within me, they've just become some weird part of my faith as I did live on past that night and let those questions and struggles motivate me and teach me that comfortable Christianity is bullshit.
How do we as Christians live with the knowledge that there are starving people in the world when we eat three meals a day? How do I as a white man justify living in a society that has been built on the sweat and blood of enslaved Africans? How do I as a middle-class American consumer spend my money wisely and with a deep concern for who made my clothes and who grew my food? These, for me, are challenging questions that come from a message like Bart's.
I was talking to a friend about those who had decided to 'check out' during the message. I was saying that it kind of fed my cynicism about north park students at times (myself included). Then the person I was talking with said something like: "ya, but what about the kids who just LOVED BART CAMPOLO? Now that's disturbing"
And she's right. I think a lot of us heard Bart, and were selective about what we heard. We picked something that he said that wasn't offensive, and we loved him for it. We should not have loved Bart. We should have been uncomfortable, challenged, and put off. Because he asks tough questions of us! I understand the reaction against him because I think we all have it, if we're honest. The appropriate response to Bart Campolo might be something more along the lines of fear and trembling at the weight of that message. But then facing that fear, not turning from it and forgetting the words, but holding onto them and praying for change in yourself and in your actions until we are moved not to reject but to respond.
I don't see what was so frustrating about what he said. I just listened to the podcast and I think it was pretty bland compared to what I've heard before. All I know is that I would rather be called out by someone indirectly in college life than live a ragedy life.
The truth is that if you're upset/uncomfortable you're probably about to learn something so don't be a punk and run out just because you heard something you don't like. NOW you have a reason to pray. Now you have something to own in this Christianity thing. The Jesus in my bible was no punk. He came to bring the truth. He didn't embarrass people because their sins had already done the job. If you're angry at Bart. Why? They’re just words. If you know they don't apply to you, what's the problem? Maybe it's because we know more than half of what he said does apply to us. And now we either have to fix it, or admit that we truly don't care right now. Whatever you decide - You own it. Don't put it on Bart. I don't agree with everything he said, but still.
Bart Campolo is very much a prophetic and shocking speaker but I do agree that he needs to have a little more tact at saying what he does with the well being of spirtiuality and opinions of others in mind. However, I believe that when he dropped the bombshell of saying that God "can't" do anything about it, he was not saying that God is incapable of doing so. It's like this, someone askes you to lie about something and due to your morality and your choice of being truthful, you say "I can't" but that doesn't mean you are not capable. Same with this. God is capable of all things, but due to his choice of giving us the freedom to choice in life, Evil was allowed in. So to correct the evil he'd have to take away that freedom and he "can't" do that. But he is still capable of doing so. And he does so threw us. We choose God and so he uses us to work on correcting these wrong and evil things in our world. Bart said this and more in his talk but he didn't say some of it with an explanation which, in all, turned people off...
I am however really pleased with how people are talking about this. Shock value tends to be a thin line to walk and sometimes it is crossed, but in this case I find that there is much good that is being discussed and understood.
I admit I was somewhat skeptical when Bart began talking about issues of justice. Don't get me wrong, I love social justice, I love the idea of hanging out with the homeless, sending AIDS care packages to Africa, rallying in Washington D.C. to put political pressure on a powerful regime. But I get burned out and overwhelmed when I think about the kids (hundreds of thousands of them) who die from malnutrition and dehydration daily, when I think of the child soldiers trained to kill, or the woman working in a factory who made my shoes. Part of me doesn't want to accept that burden.
Object permanence- as much as I try to focus on the suffering of others, as much as I need to be spurred to further action, I must admit sometimes I just shut down. It becomes too much to bear and I begin loathing my own privelege and status. It's not fair. I felt encouraged when Bart admitted that he had really struggled with his faith in God when he came face to face with suffering. So many times doubt is looked down upon as being a "weak" Christian, but I think doubt is a necessary part of developing a stronger faith.
I'm not sure if I agree with what Bart said about God "not being able to" or "can't" save those who are suffering. What then do we call miracles and divine intervention? I do agree that it is our responsibility as the body of Christ to feed the poor and heal the sick. True service takes self sacrifice and I'm not sure we're ready for that.
It is important to distinguish between what God allows us to do and what God "can't" do....There is nothing that God can't do. He allows us to freely love Him and freely reject Him. He is not a dictator God that forces anybody to do His will, because He wants full sincere love. With that being said, free will allows people to reject His love. This rejection is what causes the hurt within our world.
Imagine a 20 years old in a body of a one year old.So small, so tiny, crumbling all over the places, unable to stand on his own not because he is sick or disabled, but because he said "no" to nutritive food that could have made him grow. This may not be the perfect example but this is how we as christians appear to be.We come to Christ for salvation,once we have it we want our lives to be perfect,we present excuses for our sins to the forgiving God,less often we check ourselves in the mirror but more often we point at someone else...When and where does the growth occur?
Just like babies, there are times when we are fed spiritually with babie's food and times when we have to grow in order to handle the hard stuff.I'm sorry if you were offended by Bart's message but the most important thing is that we need to grow.I remember students checking out of college life last year because they were extremely offended by professor Soong-Chan Rah's message on justice,this year some left again because of Bart's message and who knows tomorrow if you'd do the very same thing...Though I respect the choice,i do wonder also if they plan on checking out whenever possible?
Are we realizing how we as contemporary christians tend to go about christianity for what we want it to be instead of what God wants?That's why messages on God's love, blessings or forgiveness are embraced while a serious call to action for the poor,justice,honesty would need a review first.
When i was 13 and for the first time came to Christ,i would have walked out on a message like this one.Now years have past,God and i are still close,though i don't understand why sometimes it seems like he doesn't see the suffering or maybe care less.Bless your heart if the "sovereignty" theory has humbly selected you, all i'm saying is that it really sucks when you are on the other side.
Please, don't throw tomatoes at Bart Campolo,maybe he has walked in someone else's shoes,skin, world, saw the pain and chooses to speak loudly about it instead of doing the usual( which is just praying and expecting God to take over).Why would people get upset on the "can" and "can't" because God himself might actually care less about that discussion?And wouldn't it be wonderful for him to show us that he can, since i know that my questions would be answered and maybe some of yours too? Well, he can't do that since the world wasn't maybe meant to be that perfect place...Lovingly,he laughs and cries for the poor,for the injustice,he laughed and cryed when Bart spoke,laughs and cries when students are offended by challenging message,and is laughing and crying for our tomorrow.
Living in a place where basic questions and needs are answered shapes how we see God.I'm sure also that "finding and trusting" God when none of that exists would carry a different meaning.
Friends we need to grow.
i went shopping tonight at Gap.
as i was looking over some clothing, an alarm started going off near where I was. a salesperson came over and said "it's ok, the batteries are low. those kids in india just aren't making those batteries like they used to."
i didn't know what to do - i gave a half-hearted laugh, and tried to process what he had just said.
he quickly followed it up with, "oh, i mean, i'm sure that gap doesn't use any sweatshops."
let me tell you, it was hard to choose a pair of pants or a shirt without looking at the label. "Made in Sri Lanka" "Made in Mexico" "Made in India" "Made in Hong Kong"
at random, i picked up the shirt from Sri Lanka and smelled it. why couldn't i smell the blood, sweat, and tears of the women and children who most likely made this? how do they erase that kind of pain from this fabric? all so that i can feel good about my over-priced sweater.
i didn't have much excitement for shopping anymore.
this is how i see object permanence in my life. if not for the cruel joke of that guy, the possibility these clothes being made by sweatshop laborers wouldn't have been in my mind. in fact, i was excited to get some new clothes. but instead, because the injustice was there staring me in the face and i was holding it in my hands - then it was finally present to me.
but then the ever pressing question (which is usually more of a cop-out than an honest question) - What can i possibly do to change such a huge wildly corrupt system?
i don't know. but i pray that God will bring more moments like these into all of our lives. because until its there right before me, present in the forefront of my mind, i live my life like these injustices don't exist.
can God do something about it? well, sure. he's got us to effect his change. we just need to get off of our butts.
Okay I hear what you all are saying. But this is my personal opinion. I came to collegelife with open heart and mind. I was hearing what he was saying i mean really taking it in. When he said that "GOD CAN'T" it felt like I got the wind knocked out of me.
He was saying that everything I believed was not true.
BUT I did not "check out". Frankly it took him entirly to long to make his point and I don't his explination of why he said it was made clear. So I did go to Java haus and it felt like he was talking in circles again (TO ME. So then I lift.
This is something I had to pray on becasue even when he talked aboutthe 9 year old girl who got rapid and her youth pastor said that God wanted her to learn something form it didn't make sense to me. "Why did he say that and then not explain what he thought should have been said to her."
the next day I was walking to work and I was still upset and I asked God "If I were to get jumped by some guy are u telling me that you won't do anything to help me out?"
Just becasue it is the other persons will to harm me was BART saying tha GOD would not at all intervin? these are questions I had. If you guys have answers for me then please I am ready to hear it!
p.s. I truley Believe that words have Power. They have the power to make things happen.
Dear Mical,
I had some thoughts in mind as i was reading your questions and maybe want to share something.To me the words "God can't" as said by Bart Campolo wasn't meant to be taken literally as of God being unable to do anything.It was more of an intriguing figure of speech that would capture attention and gets people to think.Let face it, we go to churches and enjoy sermons like God is our provider,the one who takes over our battles in front of our ennemies,the caring one, loving one,he will never leave us,he blesses us and much more...Please, don't get me wrong because all of this is true and good.The problem is that those sermons can create a mindset in us as being the very favorite one by him to the point where we see ourselves as invincible.The day when the closest person in our lives dies,when we miss that very last opportunity,or(God forbides this) get raped,we seriously question God,get angry at him and sometimes even we stop believing.This is because everyday,we're taught about God the protector and when for once our expectations aren't met we turn back to him and say:"i can't believe you've let that happen to me".
I've been doing some thinking lately on what kind of faith Job from the bible had.Would i humbly still stay with the Lord when all my friends will leave me,when my family like Job's will disappear on one day,or when i go from rich to poor in a blink of an eye with my physical health at risk ?
How is it possible that i was able to eat today while more than half of the world are going to bed hungry?Do i matter more than them? Certainly not,does God care for them?Of course yes.His he in control? Oh yes!Then why his he watching them slowly but surely dying while he can just say one word and turn things around? Literally,any attempt towards answering this wouldn't make sense at all.
When i was in high school,one of my friend did experience a terrible rape.I remember feeling bad for her but also thinking gratefully that i was favored to more protection .
I believe that God loves us all no matter what and he still want to be that God no matter what happens in our lives and this is where i'm trying to be with God at this point.I'd like to see myself standing with him when friends will be gone,when families,or horrible situation will occur.If God can protect me today from rape, then i'd like him to protect that 4 years old somewhere as well.This is the weird part, if that happens to me,i'll be devastated, will do some healing but wouldn't question him much because i know that this is happening everywhere to even innocent young girls.I want to see myself at the end of the day saying that God is good and that is CRAZY given a situation like this one.I want to able to take the good from him and also the bad when it happens.
In Java,Bart gave the example of a God as a playwriter that took his time to write something beautiful and extraordinary and gave each and every human being a part in it.The performance day arrives and audience come from all over the world,waiting for what they heard was captivating.Human as actors in the play unfortunately did a poor job of learning their parts.On stage some do try,some don't do it at all, the audience sees chaos everywhere.The start pointing at the playwriter(God),get angry at him and throwing objects and leaving.Kindly, he responds by saying that he did a well intentionned work on the play writing,that the story was meant to be beautiful and that actors failed to learn their parts.Just when people started leaving came Jesus,he knew his part, played it so well, so graciously to the point where every other actor started taking their parts form him.The crowd inspired by the play ended up cheering...
This is the story of our world! Sorry for being long.
I wonder if the UMin leaders handled what Campolo said and how the students responded in the best way. What do you think?
The idea of God not being able to do something seems to be the main point of contention amongst those who had issue with Bart Campolo's message.
If you are a woman out walking down the street and someone comes up with the intent to rape you, it could very well happen. Is that God's fault for not protecting you?
What if a man came and killed your family and made you into a killing machine that knew nothing more than validating your own existence by murdering others? Is that God's fault>
No. There is suffering in this world and bad things happen to good people, worse, to people who've done nothing to deserve those bad things (especially children).
When Bart said that God "can't" fix those problems of injustice, it was true and not true at the same time.
God set up this whole notion of free will to be the point that this world hinges on. The wonder of humanity is out free will. God set this system of free will up and would have to break that system of free will to commit the drastic changes that some of us are asking of him.
The point of our relationship with God is our choice to love him. Voluntary love is why we mean so much to Him. If we were just robots then we could not have a relationship with God. The idea of bad things happening in the world because there are people out there who are choosing to say "NO!" to God. That is how you get all the suffering, people refusing to align themselves with God's Will. The why doesn't God stop it?
I've asked myself that question before. And I've come to think that the pain I suffer from is a fire that forges my faith into something stronger. The strong are stong so that they might watch out for the weak. We cannot save the souls of other people, that is the Lord's work, to push on other people's hearts.
But we do have the ability to work here in the world. God has given us a responsibility to do his works in the world. We are priliged to be the hands and the feet of God. God is a being of truth and order. For his system of free will to work he will not simply reveal himself to the world as a God that will fix everything for him. For as frustrated as you might be with the idea, this verse says it all for me...
James 1:2-7
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
We have a responsibility to take our faith into our own hands.
Perhaps some were angry at Bart saying God "Can't" because if it is up to us to perform such acts of protective and supportive stewardship, then we are all of the sudden required to do something.
And taking action is something that the North Park Student body as a whole...
...is horrible at.
So is it God "can't"...
...or YOU won't?
I was not at this particular college life, but I've read some of Bart's stuff and heard him speak years ago. Here are my thoughts...
Christians passionately pursing compassion and justice = Good
Christians convinced that its up to them to solve all the problems of the world = Bad
Here's why, history teaches us the grave danger of utopian pursuits. Human beings have proved over and over again that "doing the right thing" is messy, often unsuccesful, and sometimes very dangerous. Thus historic Christian theology has always emphasized the need for God's grace not only to save us from sin but to lead us and empower us to do compassion and justice.
The fact is, "doing justice" is rarely a clear cut objective. We need God's wisdom and the power of the Spirit to do it lest we delude ourselves into thinking that our favorite politician or rack star activist knows what is best. We need the wisdom of God.
We don't do compassion and justice to save the world. God has saved the world in Christ. We do compassion and justice because God's grace invites us to participate in the work of his Son and Spirit. We do God's justice not because God can't, but because God wants us to be a part of what he is doing.
I agreed with some of the things that Bart said and disagreed with others. But the thing that has really stuck with me since hearing him speak was his raw acknowledgment of doubts. I have grown up immersed in Christian community and I have come to realize that Christianity acts as a culture many times. Often, I feel like we Christians believe what we believe because we are surrounded by people such as our parents who tell us to believe them. I think that many, many times we end up believing the traditions of the church instead of really objectively searching the Bible ourselves. I am at a place where I have so many serious questions and doubts about Christianity and all of life. And it was just so refreshing to have a Christian leader acknowledge that he has serious doubts as well. And having serious doubts doesn't mean I'm some rebellious person you need to feel sorry for who has turned my back on God. I am not giving up on God or Christianity; I'm struggling through the pain and doubts to seek what the truth is. But it can be so tiring sometimes as a Christian who does want to honestly seek God and truth but has huge questions to be surrounded by people who are so sure of what the truth is and that they have it! I feel at times like the confidence that my parents and professors have in the face of serious apparent contradictions denies the complexity of life and the brokenness that I feel. So it was comforting to hear that even adults, even people in ministry, have earth shaking questions about God and Christianity in the midst of serving him.
While it is true that we cannot solve all of the world's problems and that it is not up to us to save the world, that is not what Bart Campolo's message was about.
It was a good point to address Matt, we can't stray too far from one of Bart's most important points...
We, as Christians, should be more active in serving others through love and a dedication to God's Will. And there IS truth to the idea that if God's Will is to be done he is asking us to do it. We are the hands and feet of the body of Christ.
Saving the world is a power trip, and your right, the wrong idea.
But serving the world with the love and truth of Christ? Definitely the right decision.
The North Park Student Body is asleep. It is a lethargic mass of benignly malevolant apathy...however...
There are people on the outside edges, looking out into the world with powerful doubts and some serious questions...
Here I am, on a Sunday morning, not in church, but reading this blog. Please don't hold it against me.
I get really overwhelmed reading all of these because I'm not sure how I fit into them, and what I think about everything. And I find myself getting defensive when I read "North Park is asleep." It's like I find myself thinking, "Don't say that about my school! We're not really that asleep, that lethargic, that apathetic towards the world and our faith."
...but the problem is that I don't even have an excuse beyond that. I don't even think, "we're too busy doing our schoolwork," or "I'm too busy in another ministry," or anything else. It's just a denial. And I also realize that I don't have very good evidence to make a counter-argument.
...and the other problem is that I know this statement bugs me, but I'm not completely sure why. It's just like a natural instinct; something inside of me knows, or feels, or believes, that this is something I should care about. I should be upset that my school is apathetic-that I am apathetic. But when I think about it, I'm upset that people make that claim in the first place. I'm not nearly as upset that it might be true.
...so by now, I've realized that it's a problem that I'm more upset by the claim than it's truth. And I don't know what do about that.
If I wanted to change that statement... if I wanted to step out of my apathy, if i wanted to help my school step out of its lethargy, why would I be doing it? Would I be doing it because I was appalled that someone make that claim about me? Would I be doing it out of guilt, because I felt so badly about not doing anything? Would I be doing it because I was upset about a label that someone put on my school? Would I be doing it because I realized it's a true statement and I couldn't live with that fact? Or would I be doing it because I was so in love with my God that I wanted Him to use my life, and I couldn't help but be moved to action?
I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the last option, at least right now. And I can't speak for this school, but I'm not sure what our motivation would be either.
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